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 Yet another Harmon garage victim....

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Late Apex

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PostSubject: Yet another Harmon garage victim....   Sat Oct 17, 2009 6:57 pm

....thought he'd try it out here.

As luck would have it, you stumbled across a serious autocrosser. One of a half dozen or so in the immediate area. I participate in regional, divisional and national Solo and Pro Solo events. This year I didn't do any events farther away than northern Indiana (although I guess that's really far enough).


FYI - The car in the Harmon was the wife's car. Must've been the SCCA decals that drew the attention, although there's a decal on the truck too.

This is the car of interest I suppose...



Someone may have seen it around somewhere. Or not. I don't drive it on the street a whole lot these days.

FWIW - Right now I'm trying to sort it out after a header / off road Y install. Just doesn't have the punch it should. I'm actually skipping an event in Kansas tomorrow because of this. Well..... that and I'm up to my neck in schoolwork.


Last edited by Late Apex on Wed Oct 21, 2009 4:42 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: Yet another Harmon garage victim....   Sat Oct 17, 2009 7:10 pm

wow Welcome!

And here I thought I'd tagged an auto-Xing GTP. =P

We have a couple other members on here (Kyle and Hashish) that occasionally go to AutoX events. I've always been interested, but never really had the time to go to an event.

I'm glad you've found your way over. It's always nice to meet new enthusiasts.

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PostSubject: Re: Yet another Harmon garage victim....   Sat Oct 17, 2009 7:19 pm

Welcome!

That's a nice looking Camaro you've got there. Glad you decided to check out the forum. It's always good to see more F-bodies involved in the autocross side of things.
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PostSubject: Re: Yet another Harmon garage victim....   Sat Oct 17, 2009 10:43 pm

Welcome Welcome
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PostSubject: Re: Yet another Harmon garage victim....   Sun Oct 18, 2009 12:42 am

:O

Wow we got a winner, didn't we???

Really glad you chose to check the site out, I would LOVE to make it to Hallet with you guys next year when it gets warm.

By then I'm hoping I'll have a LSD and a new turbo. [errr... PosiTrac, whatever you guys call it tongue]

Welcome to NWAMS!!

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PostSubject: Re: Yet another Harmon garage victim....   Sun Oct 18, 2009 1:15 am

HEY! You live over by my cousin i think. ive always wanted to come talk to you about your car when ive seen it. Very Happy welcome! awesome ride
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PostSubject: Re: Yet another Harmon garage victim....   Sun Oct 18, 2009 2:34 am

nice car

welcome to the forum man
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PostSubject: Re: Yet another Harmon garage victim....   Sun Oct 18, 2009 4:46 am

i happen to have a bit of experience w/ lt1's and am really excited to see one! welcome and besides the headers/OR-Y what do you have done? i'm referring to the engine mostly, i'm sure your suspension mods may be a small novel Wink
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PostSubject: Re: Yet another Harmon garage victim....   Sun Oct 18, 2009 4:52 am

SCCA huh,I bet you have raced with a friend of mine with a white VIII. Besides that,nice car man...I do not care for turning in the least,but I can respect the skill it takes to do it.
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PostSubject: Re: Yet another Harmon garage victim....   Sun Oct 18, 2009 1:19 pm

Thanks guys. The welcome is appreciated.

Pace wrote:
Welcome!

That's a nice looking Camaro you've got there. Glad you decided to check out the forum. It's always good to see more F-bodies involved in the autocross side of things.

I'm pretty sure we've spoken via PM over on LS1Tech.

Flatty wrote:

By then I'm hoping I'll have a LSD and a new turbo. [errr... PosiTrac, whatever you guys call it ]

Seems like I've seen your car somewhere. Can't really place it right now.

Coincidentally I just had to put a fresh LSD in my car. Went with a carbon clutched Eaton this time. The Torsen T2R that was in there was used up. Don't believe the "they don't wear out" claim. Either that or it's unreasonable to think that 315 Hoosier A6s and 300+ lbs-ft at the wheels won't have adverse effects on the tiny diffs in these cars. Wink

red88supra wrote:
HEY! You live over by my cousin i think. ive always wanted to come talk to you about your car when ive seen it.

Well if you're right, feel free to stop on by sometime.

drvngstorm05 wrote:
i happen to have a bit of experience w/ lt1's and am really excited to see one! welcome and besides the headers/OR-Y what do you have done? i'm referring to the engine mostly, i'm sure your suspension mods may be a small novel Wink

Suspension / chassis? Yeah it's been a long, long list over the years. It's really never done either. Things within the class change, new parts become available, etc. For example, this winter I'll be going to a Watts link and ditching the rear panhard rod setup.

Engine wise, not so much really. Limited by the rules there. The usual colder thermostat, cold air kit and cat back exhaust. There's nothing really worthwhile as far as intake manifolds. Have an aluminum flywheel and reasonably decent clutch. Finally just got around to the aforementioned longtubes and offroad Y. Still a stock tune but that's being addressed shortly. May be what's holding the car / headers back right now, I'm not sure. I do have the original 14 year old injectors, fuel pump and MAF though too.

And I know they're original because I ordered and bought the car new. Very Happy

yellowebo wrote:
SCCA huh,I bet you have raced with a friend of mine with a white VIII. Besides that,nice car man...I do not care for turning in the least,but I can respect the skill it takes to do it.

White Evo huh?

Is this him listed in Street Modified (SM)? FWIW - I'm second place in E Street Prepared (ESP)

http://www.omrscca.org/Solo2Results/2009/September/sum.htm

I did the drag racing thing for a while when I was back east (Atco, Maple Grove, Englishtown). It was fun but didn't really do it for me. For me the whole fun was staging and launching. Now I get that with Pro Solo. It has the best of drag racing (staging / launchig) with the best of autocrossing (burning corners / back to back runs). Ridiculous amount of fun.
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PostSubject: Re: Yet another Harmon garage victim....   Sun Oct 18, 2009 1:51 pm

Still, wow. Haha. I can't wait to see your car run.

I would love to come shoot the shit with you guys about your racing and cars. If you would do us a favor and keep us updated with the SCCA events and whatever other sporting events you're involved with it would be greatly appreciated.

I've had my black Z for 3 years now and I'm really close to being 'finished' [If that's possible in a project car ] at least it's almost ready for the track.

I'm hoping to be ready by next summer or early spring with:

* Race tires on another set of wheels
* Limited slip

I've always had a loud exhaust, so if I've driven past you, you've probably heard me smilie I'm running a 2.5" Downpipe to a 3" Stainless Steel straight pipe, as I couldn't fit my current muffler on there.

I have a friend who graduated from U of A in May, his Dad has a beige Catfish LS6 Camaro SS, They used to have a black early 4th Gen Camaro, I wonder if you know them? I believe their surname is Nystrom, and they live up in Rogers.

Once again really great to have you aboard.

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PostSubject: Re: Yet another Harmon garage victim....   Sun Oct 18, 2009 5:19 pm

Flatty wrote:
I have a friend who graduated from U of A in May, his Dad has a beige Catfish LS6 Camaro SS, They used to have a black early 4th Gen Camaro, I wonder if you know them? I believe their surname is Nystrom, and they live up in Rogers.

You know Brad?

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Late Apex

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PostSubject: Re: Yet another Harmon garage victim....   Sun Oct 18, 2009 6:47 pm

Flatty wrote:

I would love to come shoot the shit with you guys about your racing and cars. If you would do us a favor and keep us updated with the SCCA events and whatever other sporting events you're involved with it would be greatly appreciated.
This season is all but over but I will make sure to do so in the future.

There are usually plenty of events to choose from depending on how far you're willing to drive. I don't do all that I can but still wind up putting 100 - 150 runs on the car and probably 4 - 6k miles towing on the truck / trailer every year.

Flatty wrote:
I have a friend who graduated from U of A in May, his Dad has a beige Catfish LS6 Camaro SS, They used to have a black early 4th Gen Camaro, I wonder if you know them? I believe their surname is Nystrom, and they live up in Rogers.
Nope, I don't think I know them.

LS6? Swapped or a typo?
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PostSubject: Re: Yet another Harmon garage victim....   Sun Oct 18, 2009 8:12 pm

Late Apex wrote:

This season is all but over but I will make sure to do so in the future.

There are usually plenty of events to choose from depending on how far you're willing to drive. I don't do all that I can but still wind up putting 100 - 150 runs on the car and probably 4 - 6k miles towing on the truck / trailer every year.

Nope, I don't think I know them.

LS6? Swapped or a typo?

No typo Very Happy It's a swap. LS6/T56. Mostly stock from what I remember, possibly a cam, it did have headers.

I helped him bleed his slave cylinder, I would hate changing a slave on that. It takes me 15 minutes tops to swap out the old one, install a new one, and bleed it on both my Z cars.

I figured the season was over, but I'm already get excited about next year. Turbo cars aren't that good for autocrossing, especially with my open diff. I prefer high speed touring anyways, which from what I heard is what Hallet is more like.

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PostSubject: Re: Yet another Harmon garage victim....   Sun Oct 18, 2009 10:39 pm

Does this Brad drive a Honda Civic as a DD?? If so, I am pretty sure Chad and myself worked with him at Nunnally.
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PostSubject: Re: Yet another Harmon garage victim....   Sun Oct 18, 2009 10:49 pm

Haaa yes it's a hatch. He used to be into Hondars in a big way until he sawr the LSX light Very Happy

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PostSubject: Re: Yet another Harmon garage victim....   Mon Oct 19, 2009 12:50 am

sounds like you've pretty much done the most you can engine wise (if i'm understanding the rules correctly).

just did a quick google and read about the watts link, but i'm wondering why you want it as opposed to w/e setup you have now? (some sort of adjustible PHR i'm sure). i've really liked my spohn parts and have a spohn adjustible PHR. maybe, as someone who has done so much driving in that car you'll be able to share your before/after impressions? i do find it quite interesting (even tho i don't like the clunky looking design, looks like it would get in the way)
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PostSubject: Re: Yet another Harmon garage victim....   Mon Oct 19, 2009 2:00 am

Late Apex wrote:

I'm pretty sure we've spoken via PM over on LS1Tech.

I wondered if that was you. I never knew you were such a serious autocrosser. I always just assumed it was more of a hobby. But that's truly a respectable setup you have on your Z. As mentioned earlier, you should post up when more info when the season starts up again. Hell, by then you might be able to talk me into running through a course or two.

Dave, I'm sure Korry could give you a much more detailed explanation of the advantages of a Watt's Link over a Panhard Rod setup, but basically the Watt's Linkage allows for more adjustability and keeps the roll center height the same throughout turns. I don't know if you've noticed, but a Panhard Bar causes the the roll-center height to change depending on the direction of travel; raising while turning right, and lowering when turning left.

That'll be the last piece to finish up my suspension once I get these front springs and shocks installed.
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PostSubject: Re: Yet another Harmon garage victim....   Mon Oct 19, 2009 11:13 am

Pace wrote:
But that's truly a respectable setup you have on your Z.

hypno compooter

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PostSubject: Re: Yet another Harmon garage victim....   Mon Oct 19, 2009 3:27 pm

Flatty wrote:
Haaa yes it's a hatch. He used to be into Hondars in a big way until he sawr the LSX light Very Happy

Ahhhh small world. I knew I had saw him a few times around campus but had no idea he was still up here.
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PostSubject: Re: Yet another Harmon garage victim....   Mon Oct 19, 2009 3:56 pm

At the risk of turning this into a tech thread.... Very Happy

drvngstorm05 wrote:
i'm wondering why you want it as opposed to w/e setup you have now? (some sort of adjustible PHR i'm sure). i've really liked my spohn parts and have a spohn adjustible PHR. maybe, as someone who has done so much driving in that car you'll be able to share your before/after impressions? i do find it quite interesting (even tho i don't like the clunky looking design, looks like it would get in the way)

Pace has already touched on the most important benefit, consistency. Simply put, a panhard car just doesn't corner the same way in opposite directions. Because the panhard axle travels in an arc, the roll center drops when cornering in one direction and raises in the other. Generally speaking and oversimplified a bit, the car pushes a bit more in one direction and oversteers a bit more in the other. In a corner with a Watts, the car simply rolls around the roll center (pivot point in the Watts). The roll center with a pnahard rod is defined as the point at which the rod passes the rear axle center line. Therefore you can see that the roll center changes location as the axle travels through an arc in each direction as the car rolls in either direction.

None of this is really noticeable at all in a street car. You have to spend some time cornering at the limit before these things become apparent. Panhard cars can still be made to work but the Watts cars are easier to drive. I spent some time at a national event this summer watching them and actually riding in one (driven by Sammy who later also jumped in my car). The best way I can describe it is that the Watts cars are less "dramatic" as they transition through a slalom. The panhard cars have to "wag their tails" to go through a slalom quickly. Even the new Shelby Mustangs. The Watts cars on the other hand just carve their way through.

Another not so insignificant advantage when you're running tires the size we are is that the axle no longer moves side to side as much as it does with a panhard rod. With a Watts, the axle simply moves up and down and not in the arc mentioned earlier.

Lastly, at least with this particular design, the roll center is easily adjusted for tweaking the balance of the car. Ever hear the NASCAR guys talking about raising / lowering the "track bar" during a pitstop? Well what they did was adjust the height of the panhard rod.

There is a bit of a weight disadvantage, some of it unsprung, with this setup and certainly there is a cost and complexity disadvantage to a panhard rod. However, when the cars get prepped to the hairy limit of the rule book, stuff like this becomes a difference maker.


I've also had Spohn stuff on the car before. I grew up / used to live only an hour or two from them. Wink Specifically, I had a short chassis mount torque arm on the car when I used to drag race. It worked well as far as acceleration goes but really wasn't very good at anything else. Off it came and I haven't missed it.

FWIW at Pro Solos, I've pulled lots of 2.0 60s on pebbly unprepped concrete with a tight cornering setup, stiff 35 series sidewalls and a modest leave. Not stunning but respectable I think for what the car is and the surface it is on.

Pace wrote:
But that's truly a respectable setup you have on your Z.

Thanks but it's really just a Sammy clone which honestly is almost the norm in the class. I (and others) have certainly tried many different things over the years but ultimately wound up with this. It's easy to drive on most any surface, just a little on the loose side, fast and pretty predictable. What more could you ask for?

For the record my current set up consists of:

Front
Koni SAs
600 lb springs on a Ground Control kit
height ~26.5 measured at the fender
Sammy's hollow 35mm bar
Sammy's offset upper bushings
~ 1/8 toe out

Rear
3rd gen Koni SAs
150lb springs on a Ground Control kit
height ~26.75 measured at the fender
GM 21mm bar
Unbalanced Engineering panhard rod
Random Tech torque arm

Other
'98 - '02 front brake swap
Hawk HP+ / HPS pads
17x11 CCW Classics with 315 / 35 Hoosier A6s all the way around



You honestly wouldn't believe how many other parts have been on the car. Frankly, I'm a little embarrassed to admit how much time, money, parts swapping, trial and error I have in the car. Ride heights and alignment info alone would fill a paragraph. Pick something you're interested in and I bet I've tried, looked into it or had something similar on the car. Embarassed
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PostSubject: Re: Yet another Harmon garage victim....   Mon Oct 19, 2009 4:34 pm

wow id love to check out ur car sometime. if you ever see my supra pull up into your neighborhood expect a knock on your door. haha
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PostSubject: Re: Yet another Harmon garage victim....   Mon Oct 19, 2009 6:28 pm

Late Apex wrote:
At the risk of turning this into a tech thread.... Very Happy

Please feel free to share, I for one want to learn as much as possible!

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PostSubject: Re: Yet another Harmon garage victim....   Wed Oct 21, 2009 4:45 pm

Pace wrote:
I never knew you were such a serious autocrosser.
Am I serious about it? Yes.

Am I good? Well... I have my moments. Some good, some bad.

Here's one of the latter.

Taken at a 2008 Divisional event in Topeka. This is what happens when you drive like an ass.












I figured you guys would like that sequence. Like I said, it's A LOT of fun.

Even when you screw up..... Neutral
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PostSubject: Re: Yet another Harmon garage victim....   Wed Oct 21, 2009 4:48 pm

haha that's awesome.

Did they yell at you for mutilating the cones? smilie

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